10 Reasons Why Obama is a Terrible President

Ok, I guess I have been away from blogging a bit too long, sadly still rusty after my hiatus I didn't take the time to read through all of the original postings and comments on the original "Why I dislike Obama". Apparently the original poster was challenged to present 10 Reasons why he believed Obama was a terrible president.

I'm assuming the original poster, Pastor Dave, will be able to come up with his own top 10 list easily enough, but since the poster that replied to him seem to feel this would be too daunting a task for anyone to acheive I'll list my own top 10, off the top of my head.

10. Dishonesty. President Obama has lied or mistated facts on many occasions, things that are easily verifiable as lies and these lies were told soley to advance issues of his agenda such as Health Care. You may cite my previous post for specific examples.

9. Lack of Focus The President and his political advisors have wasted a ton of time, energy and effort on things like nationalizing our Health care system to deal with something that quite frankly doesn't really rise to the level of being a true national emergency. In the meantime they have spent almost no time dealing with real national emergencies, such as the emergence of a nuclear Iran, or if you prefer the domestic agenda jobs and the economy. That ridiculous "jobs" bill was only put on the table after he's been lambasted by an angry public about he and the Democrats total inattentiveness to this issue, and will do basically nothing to create new jobs.

8. Decrying Partisanship while being and uber-partisan Our President talks a real good game about "changing the tone" in Washington, but so far it's been all talk. He and the Democratically controlled congress completely shut out the republicans until Scott Brown got elected, it was only after they needed a least a miniscule amount of republican support that they made a laughable and transparent gesture of the bipartisan meeting on health care, announcing at it's conclusion that they'd ram through their bill as is without republican support by changing the rules in the middle of the game. Despicable.

6. Out of Control Spending I don't think this one needs a lot of explanation, and before some one points out that the Bush administration spent way to much money too guess what, I criticized them for it as well. Both parties have a terrible track record in this regard and need to clean up their act.

5. Playing the race card Whenever anyone tries to criticize the President or his policies one of his supporters almost always falls back on the notion that it's because of race. Despicable. What's even worse is that the President makes sure to portray himself as "above the fray" in this regard and lets his political cronies make these unfounded charges when it's painfully obvious that they would cease and desist if he told them too. No he wants it both ways, he has cronies play the race card for him and then when asked for comment he'll throw out a mild, "Well I don't see it as racism" statement long after the damage is already done.

4. Policies of Appeasement and Apology Ok, I do have to give credit where credit is due and say that I agree with Obama's decision to prosecute the war in afghanistan. That having been said, he's spent most of his Presidency either apologizing for our nation overseas or doing really stupid things like giving enemy combatants US Constitutional rights and trying them in civilian courts or completely crippling our intelligence gather capabilities by not only disavowing the use of enhanced interrogation but going so far as to attempt to prosecute/discredit those who engaged in such activities prior to his taking office. This sort of "if we were only nicer to the terrorists" philosphy is not just fundamentally naive, it's incredibly dangerous.

3. General Whining Nothing is less Presidential than coming on national TV and whining about how a news organization or some conservative commentator didn't give you a fair shake. Your the President of the United States for goodness sake. You have all the airtime you want to get out your message anytime you want too call a press conference. Grow up. If you have some actual facts to refute your critics with then present them, you have the biggest podium in the world to do it from. Either way quit whining about it.

2. Elitetism Extreme Nothing characterizes the Obama administration's disdain for the average citizen more than their statements in regards to the Tea party's and their supporters. These are people who have great concerns about the direction of our nation and are organizing and gathering together to express those concerns. You may not agree with them, but to degrade them as you have is beneath contempt.

And finally, the number one reason I think Obama is a terrible president:

1.No respect for history What so few people seem to grasp, the President and his cronies in particular, is that we've gone down this road before - most recently under the Carter administration. It's a disaster just waiting for a place to happen. Everything Obama is doing right now to the economy has been tried and has failed every place it's ever been tried. And yet he continues to persist in this idiotic notion that government is the answer to all ills. It isn't, never has been, and never will be.

Ok, there's my top ten list. Flame away oh flaming liberals :)

posted by: surrogate (reply)
post date: 03.02.10 (5:27 pm)

Snore. I read this tripe three times TRYING to see if there was any substance in anything you have to say.

There isn't. You're a silly person.but you're not alone. We're a country full of people who think just like you so I'm sure you folks will get back in power again soon, and you'll screw things us AGAIN.

Reagan on the fact that he tripled the deficit in his eight years: "The deficit? I'm not worried about the deficit. It's big enough to take care of itself."

I PROMISE you don't run a business.

posted by: truthserum42 (reply)
post date: 03.02.10 (9:25 pm)

Some time I think all conservatives should be fiction writers all you guys indulge in are lies, half truths and innuendos did you complain about George Bush lies remember the weapons of mass destruction that were never verified in Iraq.
What about the lack of focus when he quit prosecuting the war in Afghanistan and with out cause invaded Iraq. If 50 million people are without health care and with no means of accessing the system is not that a national emergency. You sound like a neoconservative who never thought of a war he didn't like, is that the reason you would like to add Iran to your quiver.

Shouldn't the domestic focus be the agenda of every president since he is the head of a government that should be for the people by the people and of the people. Shouldn't the needs and concern of the people who pay for the government be in the fore front. If you were honest and not in denial of the facts you would find out from statistics that the stimulus not only created jobs but stop the loss of jobs many governors are using stimulus money to keep their state government running and preventing further lay offs.
You decry partisanship but be advised that your party loss the election by a large majority and we didn't win to continue the agenda of the party of No.

How can you talk about out of control spending when you left a 1.3 trillion dollar deficit and and the expense of the Iraq war and the Bush tax cuts were not included'

In regard to the race card issue it's not what you say but how you say it George Bush was the worst president this nation has ever known why didn't you spew the same hatred and vile at him that you insist on doing to President Obama.

The military tribunals were created to adjudicate military prisoners in uniform that represent a particular country on the battle field not common criminals such as terrorist. Do you want our justice system to become just another junta that has no regard for justice. The torture and treatment of the prisoners at the Iraq prisons was not good foreign policy and if you think so you are the one who is fundamentally naive.

The actual fact is that the previous administration was a total failure, the biggest housing foreclosure in the history of this country, a recession that was approaching depression, a failed banking system and 8 percent unemployment now those are actual facts.

What I seem to grasp is how selective you are in forgetting recent history Jimmy Carter was not as bad a president as George Bush check all the economic stats. The problem is not the government it's the hireling we elect who fail to take care of the peoples business they get elected to get re elected and the people be dammed Most of them especially Republicans become solely owned by corporate interest,

posted by: sos (reply)
post date: 03.03.10 (5:20 am)

Reply to: surrogate

Let's see, first you totally ignore the entire substance of the original post, then you attack by calling it tripe, then you further obfuscate by bringing up the fact that a republican increased the deficit too..

Wow... pretty much right out of the liberal playbook there I guess. Sad. Well, if you can come up with anything of substance yourself stop back by.

posted by: sos (reply)
post date: 03.03.10 (5:41 am)

Reply to: truthserum42

Well, in the case of George Bush the Iraq thing can really be classified as a lie. That fell much more under the category of bad intel, intel that I would point out that pretty much every other nation of any import in the matter shared. Don't get me wrong, wasn't a huge fan of George Bush, but on the honesty scale I have to give him much, much higher marks than I can Obama, regardless of your transparent attempts at revisionist history.

Your point on the justice system was simply naive in the extreme, I would suggest some historical research before you attempt to argue that in the future.

Nice to see at the end there how you fell back on the blame Bush mantra, boy, that's fresh. Do you guys like all get some sort of fax or printout with these talking points on them or do you simply regurgitate whatever idiotic thing you here folks like Pelosi say on a daily basis? Just curious.

Again I find it comical how you seem to bring up Bush as cover for pretty much everything. Did it ever occur to you that maybe I didn't think he was that great of a President either? Did you happen to notice that I never mentioned him once in the original post?

And yet your entire argument seems to be "Well Bush was worse, Bush was worse, it's Bush's fault "

Ask yourself, seriously.. what does any of that have to do with Obama flat out lying about what's in this healthcare bill? Did Bush make him do that? How about how they've treated the Tea Party people, is that also Bush's fault?

Even if one were to get on board with this notion that Obama "inherited" all of these terrible problems from the previous administration (which is funny to me since most of that can be traced directly back to Freddie, Fanny and a host of big name Democrats in the House and Senate providing political cover for them), but lets for a moment just assume your right and the financial meltdown was indeed Bush's fault.

So that gives Obama the moral right to tell outright bold face lies about what's in a bill in order to get it passed? That excuses all the rest of his childish behavior mentioned above? The race baiting, the hypocracy of saying that he want's bipartisanship and then doing the exact opposite? The total deciet in claiming time and time again that he wanted transparency when the vast majority of this health care monstrosity was cooked up behind closed, locked doors?

What did Bush have to do with any of that? Ok, you hate Bush.. I get it. Been hearing that for years and years from most of your side of the political aisle, whatever. The question here is, what does any of what Bush ever did have to do with Obama's childish behaviour?

The for the people by the people thing made me laugh quite a bit though, considering how much this president has ignored the will of the people since taking office. I think in this particular case it's a bit more about what he can do to the people, as opposed to what he can do for them.

As to decrying partisanship, no, I didn't in fact do that. I pointed out the hypocracy of the Democrats and in particular Obama for doing so, but reread my post - I never once decryed it myself

Again on the race card you duck and then bring up Bush for comparison, which is funny because I never claimed that Bush was my favorite President, not in fact did I state anything about Bush in my original post. If your entire premise is "Obama is better than Bush" I might point out that this is like trying to make the argument that dog feces are fantastic because their better than cat feces.

posted by: sos (reply)
post date: 03.03.10 (5:49 am)

Reply to: surrogate

Oh, forgot to reply to your last line, the one where you promise that I don't run a business.

Actually not really sure what left field that came out of, considering that I think you'll find the vast majority of small business owners in this country agree with me on most of what I've said, or did you happen to miss the whole tea party thing on TV? I mean I realize the uber-liberal news sources such as the times or MSNBC didn't give them much play and I'm guessing that's probably all you watch for news, but I think your going to find most business owners, in particular most small business owners, would see and agree with my point of view far more readily thant they would agree with yours.

However for the sake of full disclosure, no, I don't run my own business. I do work in the private sector, but I happen to have an employer rather than being self employed.

Guess my question for you would be, so what. How does that in any way invalidate anything I said? It doesn't. Nice try at obfuscation there, but no cigar. Again, stop by if you can manage anything of substance, you know, perhaps some actual facts to back up your assertions as opposed to personal attacks, obfuscations and subject changes to avoid substance. That would be a real nice change of pace.

posted by: surrogate (reply)
post date: 03.03.10 (6:44 am)

Reply to: sos

Well, Hmmm. Number one, just because you label me as a liberl doesn't make me one.

Number two, I'm a small businessman. Have been for forty years. I know dozens and dozens of people like me, who won't expand the way we should because we know we can't afford to provide decent health care for workers. Now we know there are lots of people out there who don't care about that, and do whatever is necessary to make a profit, workers be damned. And we're not stupid. We talk about it, do research.

Interestingly, in our group, the only people who tend to disagree with our thinking are the few guys who inherited their deal, or came by it by marrying. All three of them are impressed by the tea party movement, but they whine about everything and not one of them has ever made a suggestion as to how we might change things for the better.

Look, I know I'm wasting time here. You're one of those folks who've been convinced that our government is terrible and can't do anything right. I could list dozens of things that have made the country stronger, projects that have been done efficiently, with better results than had those projects been taken on by private companies - if for no other reason than the scale of the projects. You'll tell me I'm a left wing socialist - which I'm anything but. Let's leave it at this: I'm convinced that our government is flawed. I'm also convinced that we can do ANYTHING we put our minds to, and just because it's easier to bellyache and make snide remarks about the president, (broad non-factual remarks based solely on preconceived notions that he too is a socialist, or a someone who doesn't understand history, or, God forbid, as Dave called him, an intellectual who also has the evidently negative qualities of also being cerebral and academic, or worse, *gulp*, an impostor foreigner) we both know that you people will never give the guy a chance to prove you wrong.

I think the tea party will be a strong movement. It will be lead by fools, admired by less fervent ostrich types who believe just about anything, and be a home for those people who need an outlet to show racial and social hatred of those people and things they don't even want to pretend to understand.

Want proof? Wait five years, maybe ten. I think we're on our way to fascism labeled as freedom. We've become a nation of haters. You're one, but you don't see it in yourself, I'll bet, and maybe I'm wrong. Hope so. Just read your post a few times, then think through where you came up with that crap.

PastorDave made a remark on tblurt yesterday or the day before that Qbama ought to quit smoking and lower his choleterol, "then we can talk about health-care." I'll bet you ten bucks PD doesn't have a clue what that says about him. Just like you don't have clue that what you've written is pure unadulterated hate. Oh I know, you'll get all incredulous, but when you make broad unsubstantiated statements - statement you know god-damn well you CAN'T substantiate with anything more than circular logic, (ie: I loved this one Rush used to say about Hillary: "Since we know Bill had State troopers kill at least three people, we know Hillary most likely killed Vince Foster..." It's old, but wonderfully comical, even though he made millions believe it...) than you sir, or is it Madam? -afraid I don't know- spew crap.

As I said, I KNEW you didn't run a business. You don't write or think like someone who has to worry about the future of any employees.

posted by: sos (reply)
post date: 03.04.10 (5:27 am)

Reply to: surrogate

Just because I label you a liberal doesn't make you one. Ok.. true enough. Haven't really read enough of your stuff to quantify you as a liberal just yet. Point taken.

On to number two, glad that you've found some success in your chosen field of endeavour, and yes, I do agree that health care costs are prohibitive for small businesses. On that we do not disagree. Our disagreement, apparently, is on the best way to address this as a matter of public policy.

And I am sorry that you feel your wasting your time, but we also disagree on the competency of our government. You are correct, I do not trust our government to do certain things well. However considering their track record in these arenas I think anyone would be hard pressed to provide evidence that government actually does certain things efficiently.

I know a great deal about the inner workings of government, because I used to work for them, on both the state and federal levels, and I've seen first hand the way that it works. So no, I don't trust the government to do certain things. It's a matter of practical experience and first hand knowledge.

As to my being a hater, I must admit I find it tremendously amusing that you take me to task for calling you a liberal, and yet seem to have no problem accusing me of being a "hater". In point of fact I harbor no ill will towards anyone, yourself included, in this debate. I simply disagree that government is the solution to the problem. I fail to see how that makes me a hater. Perhaps you would care to elaborate.

As to Pastor Dave's commentary, I have no control over Pastor Dave or what he says or does. I would also ask you to point out one statement I have made that be considered hateful, either pure, unadulterated, or otherwise. Nothing I've said was either broad or unsubstantiated, I provided specific examples of instances on which my conclusions were based.

As to the Hillary thing, I never made such statements, and this sort of straw man argument is far worse than the circular logic you accuse me of with statements that I never made nor have ever endorsed.

As to your last statement, again I know several people who do run businesses, and the vast majority of them seem to agree with my point of view rather than yours. Most small business owners seem to prefer that government get out of the way, and that's why you see so many of them at tea parties. Again a point you seem to completely ignore.

posted by: surrogate (reply)
post date: 03.04.10 (6:05 am)

Okay. You win. I see the error of my ways. I reread this post another three times and though I"m not smart enough to see any specifics, I'm sure they're there, and I'm sure that because governments ARE most definitely inefficient at best, and at times, downright criminal in terms of being wasteful and - what's the word? - well, it has something to do with the turfs and fiefdoms some government folks set up around them - must mean, in turn, that they can never do anything as efficiently as the private sector. Here's my problem. For eighteen years my business was centered around helping compnaies stay out of trouble with the state and feds, and to help get them out of hot water when they stepped in shit, and I saw first hand that private companies in MANY cases are not far removed from criminal enterprises themselves, and that when there is no oversight, that, too often, the cream, rather than rising, curdles big-time into a festering pile of profit driven shit. -And I LIKE profit! I LIKE business. But if you and your tea-party goofballs think the answer is to get the government out of the way, and you win the day?

-Wait to see what we end up with.

You strike me as one of those people who think employers, for instance, shouldn't be able to be told what sort of conditions workers ought be provided - ya know, regulation-wise, minimum wage-wise, training-wise, etc. Then, you probably don't think workers ought to be able to sue if and when their employers harm them. You think the marketplace will take care of all that of only the government would only get out of the f*cking way.

-Right? Well, to a degree, anyway...

Time will tell. You folks are a loud minority, so who knows. Either you'll attract more than you repel with all the loud proclamations and meetings, (assuming you organize enough to eliminate the REAL crazies who make the movement so laughable to many of us) or, it'll fade away in a few years like so many other movements of its kind.

Probably I'm just dumb.

Why is it, you figure, that guys I know well who are all involved in the tea party thing in my town are now, and have been as long as I've known them, the dumbest mofos around? Ya know, the type who've ALWAYS blamed the government, or their competitors - or whatever's handy - for their own foul-ups?

Probably just a coincidence.

posted by: sos (reply)
post date: 03.04.10 (8:01 am)

Reply to: surrogate

Well, not sure how smart you may or may not be, but if you can't see any specifics I would submit that perhaps your just not looking for them. One notable example, Obama has lied several times about the abortion language contain in the bill. Easily verifiable, and no matter where you stand on the issue you must admit that claiming that this bill would not provide federal funding for abortions is not a truthful statement.

And while I am sorry that you seem to have had so many bad experiences with private companies, doesn't it stand to reason that if your business is centered on companies that are in trouble with the government in some way shape or form I guess it only stands to reason that you'd be dealing with problem companies. Much like police officers don't generally spend a great deal of time dealing with nice, respectful, law abiding citizens.

I think a certain, minimum amount of goverment regulation in certain areas is acceptable. However I also see a lot of drastic, negative effects caused by over regulation. If I, as an employee, have a choice between an employer who offers benefits and one that doesn't, for example, I'll go to work for the company that offers them. I don't need government to mandate that everyone offer the same benefits to everyone under all circumstances, because such regulation is not really necessary. I for example don't need prenatal care as a part of my insurance policy - but I have to carry it anyway because some government employee somewhere mandated that everyone in my state have it as part of their insurance policy. Even though it's something I have no use for I still have to pay for it, simply because of some idiotic government regulation.

As to your obvious disdain for the tea party movement, I thought I was supposed to be the "hater". Funny how the folks on your side of the political isle seem to be so incredibly quick to condemn and resort to personal attacks. I thought you guys were supposed to be the "tolerant" ones. Funny though, you seem to have zero tolerance for anyone that has less faith in government than you do.

As to the rest, well, nice to know your so superior, intellectually and otherwise, to those involved in the tea party movement in you local community. Funny how you seem to feel you can extrapolate this incredibly small dataset to include all tea party participants.

For all of the time you seem to extol your incredible intellectual capacity I find it rather amusing that you make what are such incredible leaps in logic on so many occasions. Some how I doubt that happens to be just coincidence.

posted by: surrogate (reply)
post date: 03.04.10 (11:36 am)

Oh, I never claimed to be tolerant. I never claimed or extolled any exceptional brightness either. I said you were a hater, and you are. You may or may not realize it, or accept it, but you are VERY angry - and I submit, without cause. If you don't like the term, oh well. I really don't care. I'm a hater too. I hate couched lies and those who tell them, especially those who lie to themselves so continually that they convince themselves. I own up to what I despise. Doesn't make me any better than anyone else. Just makes me feel good enough about myself to go on every day. I couldn't live with myself if I closed my eyes and accepted bullshit as truth because it's easier. I'd sooner slit my throat.

posted by: sos (reply)
post date: 03.04.10 (12:03 pm)

Reply to: surrogate

Wow.. nice to know you are so incredibly astute that you seem to know my emotional state better than I do. Do you possibly see the extreme arrogance with which you proceed with this rather false assumption?

Would you perhaps like to point out anywhere where I have lied? Or is this yet another in what appears to be a nearly endless stream of personal attacks, since you have yet to provide any factual support of what you claim is a well thought out position?

If you do indeed, as you claim, run a small business, did you ever stop and consider where the money for ObamaCare is going to come from?

I realize your quite excited about the prospect of offloading your health care costs to the government, but have you ever stopped to think where the government is going to get that money from? If your curious you need look no further than your very own wallet.

Now, can you perhaps debate this topic in an adult and reasoned fashion, or are these childish personal attacks the extent of your repertoire? Because thus far the only anger and hate in any of these postings is in your posts, not in mine.

Something you might wish to reflect on carefully.

posted by: surrogate (reply)
post date: 03.04.10 (2:03 pm)

Yes, it will come out of all of our pockets. It will also level the playing field, making it far easier for me, for instance, to hire good people and keep them. (I'll keep it personal.) It will allow small businesses to compete with larger ones AND keep costs down. Personally, I don't care exactly what the percentage is, as long as it's the same for everyone. (By the way, I have no problem with a fair-tax like system.) I also don't care if the system allows for people to buy additional coverage from private insurers. I don't even care if the whole thing is done through private insurance companies as long as coverage is looked at and treated as a RIGHT. I'm sick to death of whiners like you crying that you have to pay for neo-natal care. Wah!!!! Why don't we grow up and treat our fellow citizens as members of our team, or family, or whatever, instead of drips of spit.

OF COURSE you don't see the hate in your post. Duh.

posted by: truthserum42 (reply)
post date: 03.04.10 (9:17 pm)

Reply to: sos Again let me advise you that you are entitled to your own opinion but not to your own facts, the bad intelligence line was discredited several years ago. Even if the war was started on bad intelligence why was George Bush the only leader of the free world to believe that the intelligence warranted a preemptive strike on a helpless country that we had defeated who didn't even fight back. Now in Carl Roves book he doesn't even mention intelligence he states that they attacked because Bush believed that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction not based on intelligence but belief. Look at how they conjured up fear in the American public by talking about mushroom clouds and aluminum pipes and a mobile Barbecue pit as a nerve gas producer. 5 thousand American lives lost uselessly.

Obama has been in office only 14 months vice George Bush eight years so the comparison doesn't merit attention.

If military tribunals are so effective why has the Supreme court declared most of their ruling unconstitutional and why is the conviction rate for terrorist 8 to 2 in favor of civilian court justice over military tribunals.

I am not familiar with any idiotic saying of Nancy Pelosi but they have to be more factual and verifiable than any thing you've uttered.

It's obvious that President Bush was not a great president as evidenced by the collosal mess he left this country in, yes it's his fault he engineered a three trillion dollar cut for the rich which was not paid for, preemptively started two wars with no means to pay for them a 700 billion bail out of wall street the banking and insurance industry plus a 1.3 trillion dollar deficit. He left us a great example of people who can't lead or follow he should have gotten the hell out of the way. No leader would have gotten better results than he did.

Tell me specifically what lies are in the health care bill, as far as I know it was scored by the congressional budget office and declared to be valid. I would like to know what facts in the bill you find invalid. As far as the Tea Party people what a bunch of confused people who represent the problem of America by their total dependency on the government for medicare,social security and other benefits which is the biggest drag on the national debt but their solution is blame every body else.

Come on man don't try to rewrite history since 1980 the Republicans control the house, senate and presidency 70 percent of the time, Regan 8 years, George Bush #1 4 years and Bush #2 8 years and didn't correct any of defficiencies you mentioned are you admitting that Republicans are so lacking in leadership ability that the only reason they should be followed is out of idle currosity to see what dumb progam they are going to come up with next.
Again I ask what specific lies have Obama told based on facts not because you believed he lied. You accuse him of race baiting since he is half white what side does he prefer.

If I remember correctly the health care bill went through 5 committies 3 in the house and 2 in the senate it has a large number of republicans ammendments offered and approved by the respective committees but republicans still to refuse to vote for the bill it appears that all Republicans are bereft of individuality and take a lemming approach in follow the leader.

If I remember correctly President campaigned and ran on the promise of providing affordable national health care to all americans and if you think that is injurious to the 50 million people without health care I see why you call yourself SOS because you are in serious need of help as further evidenced by your fecal analysis but I guess that's the best you can do.

posted by: truthserum42 (reply)
post date: 03.04.10 (9:53 pm)

Reply to: sos The money for Obama care is coming from the same place Well Point,Etna and Blue cross care is coming from out of our pockets. But Obama Care is going to be cheaper simply because we will have 50 million more premium payers in the insurance market and it will not be taken over by the government.

Presently uninsured people get free medical care because they wait until their condition becomes an emergency and they go to the emergency room requiring more expensive care and leave not paying the doctor of the hospital for their services. So the the hospital raises the cost to Well Point,Etna and Blue Cross who then raises the premiums of the insured to cover the services provided to the uninsured.

If we get national health insurance the premiums will go down because ever able body person will be required to buy some form of health insurance which will lead to less expensive use of the emergency room, less expensive use of high price doctors to cover the emergency rooms. The nation will be healthier as a result of people using their physician to provide health care rather than sick care which we presently do.It's a win,win situation for all Americans.

posted by: sos (reply)
post date: 03.05.10 (5:11 am)

Reply to: truthserum42

Seriously guys, the "your entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts" line is not a very good one, especially when you never refute any facts presented and never present any facts of your own to backup your own conclusions.

As to your assertion that people who are uninsured use the ER because their uninsured and thus have to wait for care.. well, obviously you have never worked an ER in your entire life. I have. People who are getting "free" medical care jam the ER every weekend with everything from my kid has the sniffles to my baby has diaper rash.

I kid you not. They don't care that it's the most expensive medical care available because their not paying for it. ER's are open 24/7 with no appointment needed and no one ever gets refused treatement. They come in because it's a lot more convienient for them than making an appointment at a clinic, and since they aren't paying a dime of their own money what do they care if it's costing the government $300 as opposed to $30? It's not their money, so they could care less.

But the thing is the government doesn't pay the hospital $300, they pay the hospital about $150, which is less than what it costs the hospital to have all those highly trained, highly skilled medical professionals on staff. So guess what happens to the portion of the bill the government won't pay for? You guessed it, it increases everybody's medical costs who actually do pay for health insurance. The hospital has to charge all it's other patients to try and recoup that loss.

So giving more people health care they dont' have to pay for isn't going to drive medical costs down, it's going to drive them up through the roof.

I appreciate the fact that you think government run health care will help people, I really do, but truth is it simply won't. It's going to make matters worse, not better.

posted by: sos (reply)
post date: 03.05.10 (5:16 am)

Reply to: truthserum42

Well, it's a nice theory. Sadly though in practice it hasn't worked yet. Same theory applied to Social Security when it was first implemented. Now it's bankrupt. Same with medicare and medicaid. Bankrupt.

So, pose this question to you. Lets say you have some extra money that you want to invest, a friend tells you he knows this guy who can invest it for you.

You give me 10 grand and he invests it. A year later he tells you he's lost all your money, bad investments. So you give him another 10 grand, and sure enough that disappears too. After about 4 or 5 years of this, why on earth would you trust this guy to handle your money anymore?

Well our government has been mismanaging funds for a lot longer than this, and yet for whatever reason you still seem to trust them when it comes to handling money. Honestly I don't get it.

I keep hearing about how "private companies are corrupt and untrustworthy", but have you considered the government's track record in this regard? Freddie and Fanny ring any sort of bells? Seriously, think about it. If you do you might just come to the realization I have, that while our health care system does need some work the alternative of big government healthcare is far worse than the problems we face at the moment.

In short the cure is a lot worse than the symptoms we have now.

posted by: sos (reply)
post date: 03.05.10 (5:32 am)

Reply to: truthserum42

Ok.. you state that the bad intel line was discredited. Really? By whom? What are your sources? Where are your facts?

The truth is our intel was bad - so was everyone elses. England, France, Germany, Russia - we all had roughly the same intel estimates.

Now again Bush wasn't my favorite President by any stretch of the imagination, and I can certainly take him to task for a lot of things, but sorry, the "He lied" mantra is just political partisan fantasy.

As to the financial collapse, again we see a lot of assertions but no facts on your side of the argument. The biggest cause of the crisis was Freddie and Fanny and the housing bubble. But if you look it was key members of the Democratic party that protected Freddie and Fannie, and policies begun by the Clinton Administration that forced banks to loan money to people who the banks knew up front probably couldn't pay it back in the interest of "equality".

It was the democrats forcing many in the banking industry to make such risky loans that lead to this particular collapse. Seriously, think about it. If you own a bank would you loan money to someone who you were pretty sure couldn't afford to pay it back unless you were forced too? Nope. That's just stupid. It's bad business.

But if the government who controls the fed tells you, oh yes, by the way, if you don't make these loans you can't expand and can't borrow money from the Fed... well, guess what? You make the loans because you have to in most regards.

That's where your housing bubble and eventual collapse came from, this idiotic notion that banks should be forced to make loans to "low income" people so they could buy houses too.

As to specific lies Obama has told, I've presented this twice now as just one example. He's claimed on dozens of occasions that the Health Care bill doesn't provide federal funding for abortions. That simply isn't true, never really has been. He's well aware of the fact that this isn't true. That makes these statements a lie. A falsehood. A bunch of BS.

Same thing with his constant claims of "transparency" or "non-partisanship". He's yammered on and on about how the health care debates would be publicized on Cspan. A lie. He keeps talking about how Republican's don't have a health care plan. Another lie. Ok, he may not like their plan, but they do have one and he damn well knows it.

He blathers on about how his plan is not going to add to our deficiet, perhaps the biggest lie of all. If such were the case, why all the accounting gimicks? Why do you have to hide the doctor fix in another bill? Why do you have to charge 10 years of taxes and only provide 6 years of benefits to get this thing to come in under a trillion dollars?

Simple, because when you look at the actual cost of this thing it's a budget buster, and anyone with a single iota of common sense can see it a mile off. Another lie.

The fact is Obama just hasn't been real truthful with the American people. Not surprising I suppose, he is a politician after all. But my point in this is simple. I think it's time we demand more from our representatives in Washington, on both sides of the political spectrum. I'm tired of the games and the BS, I want to get rid of most of these clowns and replace them with people who shoot straight and tell it like it is, not just run around blowing sunshine up people's skirts with a lot of BS about hope and change.

Your mileage may vary.

posted by: PastorDave (reply)
post date: 03.09.10 (8:31 am)

Reply to: truthserum42
For what it's worth, it was a crass and shallow and totally-not-serious little jab not intended to be taken seriously by anyone. Really, rather mild. What does it say about me? Sometimes, when I choose, I do not display adequate social grace. Nothing more. Oh, the guy is a bad president, and his proposed health care legislation is terrible.

posted by: truthserum42 (reply)
post date: 03.09.10 (11:51 pm)

Reply to: PastorDave I am going to plagiarize one of surrogate line I've heard this tripe before the guy as you refer to him is a bad president as compared to who?. Anybody who has read the health care bill on line will tell you that it offers a greater deal health care wise than the American public has been entitled to in the last 45 years such as no more denial of health care insurance due to preexisting medical conditions, no more dropping the insured during treatment and 30 million more people added to the health care roll.How can this legislation be so bad when 271 thousand people were dropped from the health care insurance rolls in 09 and the insurance companies profit went up 56 percent that alone should tell you that they are insuring the healthy while dropping the sick. Since there has been no significant health care legislation in 45 years and that was medicare and conservatives said the same thing about it. If the legislation proposed by President Obama is so terrible why hasn't some smart conservative proposed a better plan. The Republicans controlled the government 10 out of the last 12 years if they had a better plan why wasn't it offered,do you realize the only people who have ever gotten adequate health care under Republicans are veterans while they are at war and after they have been used up they are thrown in the same predicament as others no health care. If President Obama's plan is so terrible offer a better one or maybe terrible is our only option because maintaining the status quo is not an option. I don't know what your definition of bad is but at least we haven't been attacked by terrorist and no one in his administration is concocting false intelligence to start a war. Being in office only 14 months with the problems he inherited he has done an acceptable job as evidenced by his 56 percent job approval rating according to the gallop poll as of 5 March 2010. Remember he's just black not magical.

posted by: sos (reply)
post date: 03.10.10 (8:05 am)

Reply to: truthserum42

I find it funny how you always dismiss anything you disagree with as tripe but that you never actually address any of the points raised. I'll see your tripe and raise you with obvious obfuscation.

Again we see you throwing around a lot of unsourced numbers to back up your claims. 30 million uninsured, according to whom? I've heard so many different estimates on how many uninsured their are out there that it's not even funny. Truth is I don't think any of the numbers are accurate.

As to average health insurance profits, their not nearly as high as you might think, not by a long shot.

And the conservatives have proposed a better plan. Multiple times. If you got your news from something other than the New York Times or MSNBC you might realize that.

But I like how you ended with the standard blame Bush mantra. After 14 months though, when does Obama start taking responsibility for anything, if ever?

By your logic, can we blame everything that happened in the Bush years on all the problems he "inherited" from Clinton?

posted by: truthserum42 (reply)
post date: 03.10.10 (1:16 pm)

Reply to: sos Again let me posed this question to you if we all had the same intelligence why were we the only country who thought it was serious enough to preemptively invade a foreign country that posed no threat to us. Since all the other countries were in a closer proximity to Iraq than the U.S. Why didn't they invade or at least assist us in our combat effort?. Since Israel is the only democratic country in the area why didn't they feel as threaten as we did. If it was bad intel that we received why didn't withdraw after no WMD's were found?. 43 hundred young Americans lives and 200 thousand Iraqis lives were lost and wasn't because of bad intel it our gingoistic attitude toward people we didn't like and there is still no assurance of a democratic form of goverment.

Let me suggest to you to increase your reading horizon to believable sources such as Forbes Magazine, Barrons Weekly and the Business Digest so that you can get some of you facts straight. The main cause of the economic melt down was not due to poor people it was due to derivitaves, hedge funds and credit default swaps. The mortgage foreclosure was miniscule compared to banking and insurance industry covering the losses derivatives and credit default swaps.If the melt down was due to poor people why didn't the money for the bail out go for that why did it go to bail out the bank of america,Citi Group,Merill Lynch, the Swiss bank and others. Merill Lynch and Citi group did not engage in house mortgaging they dealt in Commercial Realestate so your poor people cause doesn't reasonate. The average yearly income per house hold of people involved in foreclosure is over 60 thousand dollars per year do you consider them poor.
After President Clinton left the white house the Republicans control the house senate and presidency for 10 years why didn't they solve this problem since you accuse the democrats of being responsible for them, what do republicans do when they get eclected other than sit around with their thumb up their butts and their brains in neutral and sell this country to religious charlatans, corporatist and shills for multinational corporations just for the sake of getting reelected as evidenced by a failed economy,Bank failures, housing failure, two wars fought simultaneously not paid for, 1.3 trillion dollar national debt, no health care insurance for over thirty million people, Ross Perot warned you of this disaster over 12 years ago.

If the Democrats are so powerful and over bearing why is all the lobbying money from corporate interest going to republicans to vote against economic reform and banking regulations. There is an old adage that even a dog will not bite the hand that feeds it so your reasoning stretches credulity.

You are so neanderthal in your thinking simply because you don't believe statistics you consider they no bearing on the facts even elected republicans agree with the number of people reported as being uninsured. Insurance companies data comes from the insurance industry or are you aware of another source.

why is the republicans better plan kept in such secrecy don't they think the American public is intelligent enough to decipher which plan is better. I don't know where your news source is gathered from but it is not as accurate as either MSNBC OR THE New York Times as evidenced by you blather.

Obam has already started taking charge and responsiblity for the office for which he was elected Health care Reform, a Jobs Bill, Education reform and a bill to clean up the environment has been passed by the house and sent to the Senate if thats not taking responsibility and showing leadership what is?. All done in less than 14 months.

Regarding abortion there has been a law on the books for 12 years outlawing federal funds to be used to pay for abortion it is called the Hyde ammendment and covers all legislation, so the President did not lie when he said there is abortion coverage in the bill. Any way it's a health care bill not a death bill.

posted by: sos (reply)
post date: 03.10.10 (3:20 pm)

Your question, why were we the only country who thought it was serious enough to preemptively invade a foreign country that posed no threat to us.

As to your assertion that derivatives caused the collapse, my response would be, simply, duh. But where did those derivatives come from? From toxic debts injected into the system by primarly bad mortagages that banks were forced to make by Clinton, Frank and the rest of the gang.

As to the republicans keeping there plan secret, that's laughable at best. They've had it posted online for ages, they've talked about it quite a bit on reliable news sources that will actually cover such things. The fact that you have buried your head in the liberal sand and taken the progressive ostrich approach to life doesn't mean the republicans don't have a plan, it just means you cherry pick your news sources so you only hear a bunch of crap that agrees with your obviously uninformed opinion.

And yes, the President has lied, about the abortion language in the bill, about all the enron style accounting they've done to make this things supposedly "affordable", on a whole lot of things he's said that simply are not true and don't pass the sniff test.

Do youself a favor. Google terms like "The Doctor Fix". You might just open your eyes. Sadly though I fear facts simply don't have any place in your ideology.

My response, first whether or not they posed a threat to us given what we knew at the time is highly debatable. If our intel, which was the same intel everyone else had, was right, and they were developing the atomic bomb, the math was simple :

Iraqi Nuclear Weapon + Deniable Terrorist Group Delivery System = Major threat to us.

As to your presumption that we are the only nation that ever invaded another nation "preemptively" on such a threat, real or implied, is laughable and denotes a total lack of historical knowledge.

posted by: truthserum42 (reply)
post date: 03.12.10 (12:58 pm)

Reply to: sos There is such a thing as residual effects but placing the blame for the financial melt down on Clinton after he had been gone for over 9 years stretches credulity even for a guy like you who always believe it's not my fault and That the Republicans were in charge in name only because they were to incompetent to see the impending financial collapse even with all the stats that were available to them. what were they doing picking their nose, they definitely were not taking care of the peoples business.

The only thing in the Republican health care plan that presented at the health care forum was control of malpractice suits which only comprised 2 percent of the whole health care budget and health care saving accounts and selling health care insurance across state line that made no sense since 4 health care insurance companies or their affiliates control 92 percent of health insurance market. The Republicans would only cover 3 million people vice 30 to 50 million people under the democratic plan, it had no measures against preventing people from getting insurance due to preexisting medical conditions or from being dropped from the insurance rolls during an illness.

I won't comment on where I think your head is burried but where ever it is it's only providing you a jaundice view of a bad plan or maybe it's not because of your view you could just be suffering from a bad case of myopia. You seem to be a guy who would shoot the messenger regardless of factual it was if you didn't agree with the results.

I don't accept without checking official sources facts from talking heads,pundits or partisan bloggers because their message is usually through a political prism with a bias agenda.

Obviously the doctor's fix is not to informative or educational because it would have told you that you can't provide abortion to any one with Federal funds it been on the books for 12 years.

The health care bill was scored by the congressional budget office I presume with competent accountants and was declared to be revenue neutral in 10 years, what did your scorers come up with. If I remember correctly all the
Enron school accounting graduates are in Federal prison.

Even if the intelligence was correct we know from the Desert Storm war that Iraq had no delivery system that would even threaten to reach the U.S.
again I ask why did we preemptively invade when all the countries in closer proximity to Iraq than the U.S. didn't feel it was necessary such as France,Germany,England.Syria, Saudi Arabia and Israel. Doesn't it stand to reason that if he had any combat equipment that he would have used it during the first gulf war and why would Saddam stand by and let the U.S. pillage the country as it did if he ever was a threat.

Tell those 4 thousand American who died in combat and the millions of iraqis who either died or has been misplaced how simple the math is you're not talking about widgets but human lives that is a rather crass remark, do you place any value on human life other than your own.

posted by: sos (reply)
post date: 03.14.10 (5:08 am)

As usual we find your reply, indeed your entire ideology, lacking in both historical persepective and support in fact. The notion that banks should be forced to loan money to people who couldn't afford it was started under the Clinton administration, by your beloved Democratic party. As much as you'd like ot ignore this, it's a fact.

After serious questions were raised in later years and various people tried to put a stop to this idiotic practice, again it was your beloved Democratic party that prevented any meaningful intervention in the name of "social justice".

The CBO, in case you didn't know, can only work with the numbers their sent by the Congress. This is a clear case of garbage in, garbage out. Not hard to look good when you collect taxes for 10 years but only provide benefits for 7. Also much easier to look like your bill isn't a budget buster when you offload a good portion of the costs into a seperate bill, aka the Doctor Fix, which should be factor into the cost but isn't because it was "hidden" from the CBO.

I guess the base question here is how could anyone possibly believe that a government that has never, once, in it's entire history run a program efficiently and has kept one from going bankrupt possibly "reduce" the deficiet by running another one? It's lunacy at it's finest.

As to whether or not Bush lied, honestly, yawn. Get over your Bush fixation my friend, he's not president anymore and seriously, you just need to get over it. If your unwilling, yet again, to look at historical fact, then not much point in debating this with you because your never going to admit your wrong, even though you obviously are you'll never concede the facts regardless.

But one last try, you assert that Iraq wouldn't have had a delivery system. Um, einstien, what do you think those terrorist groups were? Nukes aren't that dangerous when you have to launch them on the end of a missle. Why? Because everyone knows right where they came from and launches back. They get real dangerous when you can hand them off to a bunch of nut cases who'll smuggle them into your enemies nation and set them off by hand. Then things get a lot more complicated, because mutually assured destruction isn't so mutually assured.

posted by: truthserum42 (reply)
post date: 03.15.10 (11:35 pm)

Reply to: sos You seem to believe that the Republicans were elected to continue the Clinton policies regardless of how ill conceive they were or were they elected to provide a different type of leadership. Which ever the case they failed miserably as evidenced by them quadrupling the national debt, leaving a 1.3 trillion dollar deficit,giving the rich a 3 trillion dollar tax cut unpaid for starting two wars unpaid for and sitting on their hands and watching the economy collapse and all you can say is it's Clinton fault. for your information it was former Republican Senator Phil Gram who ushered the use of hedge funds and derivatives as a financial certificate through the Banking and Finance Committee. Why do you insist on making the Republicans seem so hapless.

If the Democrats were responsible for the housing finance mess why are the Republicans fighting so hard against finance reform and regulations? It would seem as though they would want reform of financial institutions and credit card regulations to stop those who are unable to pay from borrowing.

Again that halo designating you as a financial wizard of your own opinion has reappeared the Congressional Budget Office is the only official source of scoring legislation but you seem to believe they are stupid to. You and Dr Fix's have one thing in common you churn out your own numbers without any scoring or verification. Don't you realize that there has to be preparation prior to implementation or are you expecting the additional needed funds to fall from the Sky.

I don't know what your definition of efficiency is but medicare,medicaid and the veterans health care system all have been in existence for over forty years without missing any payments or going out of business and seem to serve it's intended population adequately.

If health insurance premiums continue to rise from 25 to 40 percent per year as predicted what do you think is going to happened to the deficit, if there are 50 million people without health insurance and 14 thousand are added to the roll each week simply because they are not able to afford the increase in premiums. What do you think the 1.6 trillion dollar deficit will be in 10 years since health care cost is the fastest rising cost to the American consumer. It is not feaseable to reduce the deficit under these conditions so you can pay now or pay later but the longer you procrastinate the more it's going to cost.

I'll quit blaming Bush if you will lay off Clinton.

Please read the 9-11 report because it states unequivocally that there was no connection between the Terrorist and Saddam or Alqaida and Saddam it was a figment of Cheney's imagination. The Terrorist that attacked on 9/11 were financed and provided express visas by Saudi Arabia but since they provide 68 percent of the Oil used in the U.S. to accuse them of being involved would start a conspiracy theory.

posted by: sos (reply)
post date: 03.17.10 (9:00 am)

Truthserum.. I must admit it's an ironic handle considering how much you avoid anything to do with the truth, historical fact, or just plain old fashioned common sense.

If your willing to overlook all of the transcripts, video and other evidence of Barney Frank and his fellow Democrats defending Freddie and Fannie and ignore all the evidence of Republicans who tried to shine a light on this long before the collapse, then obviously your too far gone down the kool-aid drinking ideologue path to be worth discussing much of anything with, much less anything of substance.

As usual your response is full of obfuscations, tangents and yet again we find you NEVER address any points or any facts that clearly prove your ideology not only to be dead wrong, but in many ways dangerous.

posted by: truthserum42 (reply)
post date: 03.17.10 (4:39 pm)

Reply to: sos I gave you facts, the Republicans controlled the House and Senate simultaneously for 12 out of the last 20 years and you have the audacity to blame the fiasco that they left on the democrats, that dog won't hunt even in peoria.

You are omitting one salient point regarding transcript and videos after the Democrats you had Dennis Hastert as speaker of the House, Trent Lott and Dr Frist as leaders of the Senate,Phil Gramm as Senate Finance and Banking Committee Chairman and Alan Greenspan as head of the Feds. With all this power and controll what were these guys doing and they appeared to have had no indication of what was about to happen remember this happened at the end of their administration not at the beginning, so for you to blame this fiasco on poor Barney Frank would stretch the imagination of a genus. You were in controll 12 consecutive years from 1994 to 2006. As bad as you hate to face these facts it's the truth, the honest truth, nothing but the truth so help me God. Now deal with it.

If the facts and their source that I presented to you obfuscate you view, may I advise you to see your optomitrist and opthamologist because you need serious help when it comes to seeing things as they are as opposed to how you would like them to be.

posted by: sos (reply)
post date: 03.18.10 (7:38 am)

Ok, I wasn't in control of anything for 12 years. As I mentioned to you before, I'm not a republican. Guess you missed that part.

Second, I never said the republicans were blameless in this regard, just that a few republicans were trying to sound the alarm bell and were either ignored by their own leadership or attacked and belittled by Barney Frank and others whenever they did try to raise serious concerns.

Third, the policies in question began under the Clinton Administration and were instituted by democrats.

Fourth, as usual you seem to completely ignore any information that doesn't agree with your narrow view of things. As I've stated before, there are plenty of things I take the Bush administration to task for and many things they did I thought were horrible.

Same with the Clinton Administration before them. But unlike you I don't allow ideology doesn't blind me from the truth. Something you might seriously want to think about BEFORE you respond with yet another tiresome, "all republican's are evil and all democrats are saints" style rant.

Deal with that skippy.

posted by: truthserum42 (reply)
post date: 03.18.10 (5:44 pm)

Reply to: sos I think you're in denial and I bet you voted for John McCain a tree is known by the fruit it bears. If you can't correct a problem in 12 years what then can you do?. But remember Ross Perot warned you of this problem over 10 years ago and advised that who ever is elected should fire Alan Greenspan immediately but the Republicans believed that the market forces would take care of the problem but that invisible hand failed the American public once more.

Poor Barney Frank are you insinuating that gay pride is stronger than male Testosterone and that the Republican part was overwhelmed by him and his gay pride agenda, Is that the reason Republicans are so homophobic?.

Regardless of who bad policies are started under,newly elected Administrations are supposed to correct or repeal them and from your own admission the Republicans failed miserably.

Ideology has nothing to do with it but being accountable and correcting problems that adversely affect The American public does, or why have elections if all you get is the status quo.

posted by: sos (reply)
post date: 03.18.10 (6:00 pm)

Ok.. lets try this in all caps this time, since apparently your too far gone to understand this simple point.


Amazing how you can't seem to grasp this. But the homophobe accusation really had me rolling on the floor. Please, oh loud mouthed one, point to a single statement I have ever made to back up this spurious charge.

Please point to a single statement I have ever made that included or even alluded to someone's, anyone's sexual orientation. By all means, give us some proof.

Otherwise I guess everyone else is going to figure out real quick what I've already come to realize, that the orifice your using to express your opinions is not the same one you use when you brush your teeth.

So what's next, you claim I'm racist? Pathetic.

posted by: truthserum42 (reply)
post date: 03.19.10 (10:56 pm)

Reply to: sos If it walks like a duck quack like a duck and acts like a duck it's a duck. Leopards can't change their spots either.

Every Republican on the Arm Forces committee all stretches the imagination of normal thinking people by believing that homosexuals are a threat to national security and only one has ever served in the military and that is John McCain. In fact they are the threat to national security by denying intelligent gay people the right to serve their country simply because they are gay.

I never said you were homophobic but remember Barney Frank was so disrespected by the Texas representative headed by Tom Delay who referred to
him as Barney the Fag. The hue and cry of the Republican party is the liberal and anti gay agenda as if that is the biggest problem in America.

I guess our opinion of each others view are mutual because some of your opinion indicate to me that you suffer from a serious case of rectal optitis.

I never said you are a racist but you never gave a valid reason for hating Obama even after you admitted that he was smart.

posted by: sos (reply)
post date: 03.22.10 (12:25 pm)

Wow.. the only ducking going on around here is you yet again ducking direct questions and direct points that obviously prove your ideology is not just wrong, it's downright dangerous.

Now, lets try this again since apparently you either cannot or do not read what is posted to you, either that or your too intellectually challenged to respond to it in any substative form.

You didn't accuse me of racism in the original response, you did however make the charge that I was homophobic. Now, to refresh your obviously challenged memory, I asked for proof of that charge.

You have provided.. as usual, none. Zip. Zilch.

Then I ASKED if your next tactic was to accuse me of racism. Instead of providing PROOF as usual you DUCK the question entirely and try to obfuscate.


Now, please note my use of caps doesn't indicate I'm upset or shouting in any way, I've merely found that in previous responses you seem to pretty much ignore anything you don't wish to read and then respond to straw men rather than actual arguments, points or facts. I'm hoping that perhaps a use of capitals will help you overcome this particular shortcoming, though my guess is it's ideologically based rather than a vision problem in your case.

I gave more 10 valid reasons why I think Obama is a really, really bad president. I never once stated that I hate him, that's your canard, not mine.

Also, I never claimed Obama wasn't smart. The man is a college graduate after all. But Obama's problem isn't that he's an idiot, Obama suffers from the same disfunction you have - his ideology is based entirely on the theoritical. If it sounds good in theory, well then it must be a good idea.

Sadly however in real life that rarely if ever turns out to be the case. That's why I prefer an ideology based on what works good as opposed to what sounds good.

Now, please pull out the earplugs, take off your blinders and actually start to think. If all your here to do is regurgitate the same nonsense you read over at Moveon.org and the Democratic parties website then it becomes pointless trying to discuss anything with you because, as you have already demonstrated quite nicely, your arguments are entirely circular and based on FALSE PREMISES.

False premise #1 : All Republicans - which doesn't work well since I'm not now nor have I ever been a member of the republican party.

False premise #2 : I hate Obama - I can't hate him, I don't know the man personally. I do think he's a terrible President and that his policies will be dangerous and even destructive to our economy.

False Premise #3 : If I disagree with you that makes me a bad person. It doesn't. Just because I disagree with you on policy doesn't mean that I'm "hateful" or a "homophobe" or a "racist" or any of the other charges you've hurled my way since this discussion began. It also doesn't mean that I want people to do without health care. We just happen to disagree on the best methods of obtaining that goal. But instead of having an adult, policy based discussion, you prefer a childish name calling contest because you have to demonize me or your own belief in your own ideology gets very shaky indeed.

And yes, I know I probably wasted my time with almost this entire post. That you'll most likely just toss it all aside, run off on yet another in your endless series of tangents and obfuscate even more.

But I guess the question you need to ask is, who is all of this denial and obfuscation designed to fool? Because it hasn't worked on whit on me since the outset, so perhaps you might wish to consider the notion that the only person your really fooling here is yourself.

Just a thought.

posted by: truthserum42 (reply)
post date: 03.22.10 (11:02 pm)

Reply to: sos I have not ducked any of your responses and further more you have not provided any that I would consider substantive whether you're intellectually challenged or intellectually superior.

I never accused you as being a racist and since you emphatically deny that you're a republican why did you take the homophobic charge so serious. When it comes to gays and lesbians serving their country regardless of their qualifications Republicans use their sexual orientation as a national security threat.

I responded to you as explicitly as I possibly can and if you are not able to comprehend maybe I should question your intellectual capacity.

I didn't say you were a racist but your ten invalid reasons given for thinking he was a bad president lends one to believe that it could be because of his color since none of his legislative proposal has come to fruition and his predecessor was so much worse.

what is pathetic is that because I don't say what you want me to say is not ignoring you but trying to challenge you convoluted thinking to a more main street approach. Whether ideologically or visionary President Obama refused to look at unpleasant conditions and ask why but ask why not changed the situation to benefit all Americans as evidenced by his health care,financial and credit card reform proposals.

You gave 10 invalid reasons for disliking President Obama none presented with any factual proof.

I did say that you admitted that he was smart. Since you are hung up on ideology let men apprised you of this fact all ideas are formulated into a theory, the theory must then be prepared'practiced implemented and adjusted to make it workable for the situation it was designed for. An ideology is just an idea if it's never implemented and if it does not work as intended then it's a bad idea but we will never know until we try as evidenced by all Republican presidential candidates campaigning on their conservative credentials and promising a balance budget but not one has ever presented a balance budget or had the courage to reduce the deficit by making serious budget cuts.

I don't know if this is a regurgitation or if this is my original assessment of you. You're the type of individual who would rather be right than get it right and it doesn't matter how factually wrong you are. People like you who refused to accept facts except those conjured up in their on mind is a sign of myopia.

True Premise #1 I'll concede, but association does bring on assimilation you sure sound like a republican.

True premise#2 What policy has Obama gotten through the legislative procedure that is so dangerous and destructive?

True premise #3 I never said you were a bad person just ill advised and misled. I never said you were a racist. If you wanted Americans to have access to better health care why wasn't there a better plan offered than that watered down Republican plan which did not improved the situation any according to the Congressional Budget office.I really believe you think that there is a halo around your head designating you as a paragon of intellectual superiority If I remember correctly you call my ideas childish but you haven't presented anything that validates your ideas.

If you wrote this response to clarify your opinion maybe it's not obfuscation, it could be comprehension.

The reason the facts that I presented to you has no effect on you is because you are in a state of denial of the message simply because of the messenger.

Just a fact.

posted by: sos (reply)
post date: 03.23.10 (7:17 am)

Why would I take the homophobic charge seriously? Question here truly should be, why would you make such charges without at least a modicum of proof?

Premise #1 - A republican is a member of the republican party. I am not. While I might share certain political views with people who are members of the republican party, I am not a member of the party and hence not a republican.

Premise #2 - A health care bill that is going to bankrupt us for starters. Spending and corruption are out of control in Washington, have been for quite some time, but Obama has accelerated the process to a frightening degree.

Premise #3 - Again you keep falling back on the racism canard, when the insinuation you made was that I was a homophobe. I still ask you to present any shred of evidence to support this insinuation, or barring that perhaps be man enough to withdraw it.

I am not in any form of denial, but you appear to be. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it, it's that simple. What we are trying here now has been tried and had always failed in the past, I see no reason other than blind stupid faith in government to support the notion that it will work here.

And since the government your giving this blind faith too has failed miserably in every other program they've ever instituted, I find it astounding that you still seem to think that they will succeed here. It's simple logic.

posted by: truthserum42 (reply)
post date: 03.24.10 (12:57 pm)

Reply to: sos Premise #1 Didn't I just say that association brings on assimilation.

Premise #2 The health care bill will not be controlled in Washington, your insurance company will still be in control of your plan and your premium if you are under the age of 65. Did the 2 wars that are unpaid for caused bankruptcy, did the the 3 trillion dollar tax cut to the rich caused bankruptcy or did the 7 hundred billion bail out of banks and other financial caused bankruptcy? No so quit crying wolf and that the sky is falling the health care reform bill is the only piece of legislation where by all participants will be required to pay something. I was astounded by the fact that so called conservative Republicans thought it was unconstitutional for all people over 26 years of age to have health insurance or pay a penalty when using a medical facility and unable to pay for the service yet we mandate car insurance for owning a care, we mandate property tax for owning land or houses and fire and mortgage insurance is mandated if you own a house you are also mandated to wear a helmet if riding a motor cycle. At least under Obama the American citizen is getting a benefit for the tax he pays for health insurance.

Premise #3 Thou doest protest to much but since you insist I will withdraw the homophobic charge only if you cease acting and sounding like a republican.

Stop looking backwards and start looking to the future history is the last refuge for fools and scoundrels. What has been tried and failed I hope you are nor referring to the health care reform program because we never tried after all the efforts of roosevelt,Truman, Eisenhower,Kennedy Nixon,Carter,Regan,Bush #1 and Clinton it failed due to undue influence by Insurance companies. All the countries who have socialized or nationalized medicine has a better out come health wise and financial than we do with our monopoly system controlled by 4 Insurance companies. Again you are exhibiting your myopic view of the world nobody advocates blind stupid faith but measured by any metrics you want the U.S. government is the best in the world and has done more for it's citizens than any other country in the world, I'm not saying it's perfect just the best in existence and since you have such disdain for it have you ever thought about looking for a better one. Why don't we try to make the best better rather than riling up people with all this antigovernment fervor.

What has the government failed in and according to whose metrics, lets look at history of social security has been in effect since 1936 and no body has missed a payment, medicare celebrated it's 45th birthday this year and no seniors have died due to a lack of medicare, medicaid was instituted the same year and the poor seem to be receiving adequate medicare So what do you meam by your false accusations that every government program instituted has faied, not so and from your perspective it can only be described as dumb founded illogic.

posted by: sos (reply)
post date: 03.25.10 (6:50 am)

sos Premise #1 Didn't I just say that association brings on assimilation.

Ok.. so by your premise since you are an American Citizen and since there are some American Citizens who are murderers and rapists, then ergo you are also guilty of murder and rape?

This essentially is the same logical circle your using to state that since I happen to share some political views with republicans and since there are some who also share such views that might be classified as homophobic that I am guilty of homophobia.

In other words, your full of crap.

The second fun one from your response.. "The health care bill will not be controlled in Washington"

ROTFLMAO - Right.. and the easter bunny is going to be bringing along some fairy dust to sprinkle on my lottery ticket this Easter. What a total load of bunk that is from the get go.

The other one I loved was "Stop looking backwards and start looking to the future".. made me crack up too.

Ok.. so a guy jumps off the roof of a two story house, and breaks his leg. Another guy jumps off the same two story roof and breaks his arm. Third guy follows suit and sure enough cracks some ribs on the landing. After watching half a dozen other guys jump off this same roof it gets to be your turn. Now, you can either learn from history and realize, hey, this is a stupid idea. This hasn't worked out so well for all the guys in line ahead of me, maybe I'll pass.

Or you can "Stop looking at the Past" and "Not take refuge with fools and scoundrels" by jumping off the roof yourself. Just don't blame me when you break something simple because you were too stupid to respect history.

As to the "stop acting like a republican and then your not a homophobe" nonsense, again we find you preceeding from the false premise. Your premise is that all republicans are automatically homophobes. This of course is every bit as false as applying the logic that all American Citizens are murderers or rapists just because a small percentage of our population has been convicted of such crimes.

It's ridiculous, circular logic and honestly beneath anyone interested in honest debate.

Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.. hmm.. and do we have the money to keep funding these programs or are we borrowing money hand over fist to fund them?

The later of course is true.. and what happens when we can no longer borrow money to pay for the programs.. well, then we have a really, really big problem don't we?

Again, simple mathematics. Now, again I ask you, are you prepared to produce a single statement I have ever made to substantiate your insinuation that I am a homophobe? Or are you willing to man up and admit that this was a baseless charge and totally without merit?

posted by: truthserum42 (reply)
post date: 03.25.10 (3:43 pm)

Reply to: sos Only if you think and act like them, even you admit that you share their views, The Bible states that as a man thinkest in his heart so is he. Again let me remind you that if it acts,quack and think like a duck it's a duck regardless of how much you're in denial.

That's the only concrete statement you've made,We are all full of crap with no exceptions the only different between humans an outhouse is that human have legs.

I wish you would read the bill for yourself if you are under the age of 65 and not poor enough to be on medicaid you will select your own health insurance company, select your own plan and pay premiums yourself to the insurance company not the government.

ROTFLMAO; May be the reason you are so suspicious and your thought process so far fetched is that you believe in the easter bunny, again let me remind you that there is no such thing and that rabbits don't lay eggs.

I'm glad you accepted my advice , unless your brain is stuck in neutral the only thing we are unable to change is our parents and life expectancy.

You are getting my point ok say a guy jumps off a building and breaks his leg, the guy whose standing behind him and not bound by history would say that is dangerous I am going to make a paradigm shift and make a U turn. Just because you have always jumped doesn't mean that you have to keep jumping when it becomes unsafe unless you are a history buff and stuck in the past.

I've just checked with the Social Security bureau and the social security budget is solvent as is until 2041 even if the party of NO,slow and stop(
Republicans) is in charge 31 years should be ample time to make a change. Remember nothing is forever life is dynamic and demand change so will the Social Security Department.

What happens when we no longer can borrow money to pay for programs, maybe we will cease from starting wars and trying to democratize the world prioritze our needs and adjust accordingly the situation is not hopeless. stopping the war would add 2 trillion dollars in expendable cash.

Read premise #1

posted by: sos (reply)
post date: 03.26.10 (5:34 am)

Reply to: truthserum42

So by saying I share certain views with some republicans then by your logic that proves I'm homophobic.

Ok, well if that's your logical process were you aware that makes you a racist? A pedophile? A communist, and terrorist?

After all, you share certain political views with people who are all of the above. So, from now on would it be fair of me to just start referring to you as a pedophile?

Or do you think perhaps that would be vile, loathsome and beneath contempt to tarnish your reputation and your good name simply because we disagree politically?

I mean what sort of filth would resort to such tactics and not have the manners to admit they had stepped across the line when it is quite obvious their original charge could not be proven? Pretty much only the lowest form of pond scum would engage in behavior like that, don't you think?

Hmm.. I wonder...

And you might want to check with the SS Administration again skippy. This time ask them if what they have in funds is actual, physical assets or a boatload of useless IOU's. Guess what? It's nothing but IOU's. The money isn't there, it's gone, all spent by greedy politicians over the last decade or so on pork barrel nonsense and other domestic programs designed to turn you and I into dependent tax slaves.

Social Security doesn't have a real dime to it's name, hasn't for years. Everyone knows it, it's been widely reported and only a true ideologue would even attempt to claim otherwise. Of course I guess that's the sort of behavior you'd expect from pond scum who hurls baseless accusations. My, thank goodness you’re not one of those huh?

posted by: truthserum42 (reply)
post date: 03.27.10 (12:14 am)

Reply to: sos Since you're so hung up onthe homophobic charge can I assume that you don't have any gay or lesbian acquaintants, just a joke.

If Ihurled racial epithets or gave evidence of a pedophilian affinity or believed that the state should own and control every thing your acertian would be correct, if I did things to terrorize and scare people your terrorist accusation would be valid but since I've not advocated any of these tendicies you accusation would be spurious.

The present system of including Social Security funds into the general funds has been in existence for a long time regardless of the amount or IOU'S no one has missed a check and the money will be available for 31 more years before the problem becomes unmanageable. I am confident it will be adjusted prior to then.

No department has a real dime all accounts including gas tax, unemployment and the Department of defense are paid out of the general fund account.

posted by: sos (reply)
post date: 03.29.10 (5:10 am)

You can assume anything you wish, since your entire world view seems based on nothing more than ungrounded assumptions I suppose it shouldn't be all that surprising. The truth is you don't even know what my sexual orientation is, what my race is, indeed even what my gender is but you seem to still feel free in hurling charges and baseless accusations with out a shred of evidence to support your claims. The only joke here is you I'm afraid.

Yes, they would indeed be spurious, every bit as spurious as your allegations and insinuations, just as a I pointed out.

Again you obfuscate, indeed even flat out lie to support your rigid, idiotic, ideological viewpoint, and still never address anything of substance.

You don't apologize for you lies and outlandish charges that you offer without a shred of evidence to support. Instead you make even further public assumptions and insinuations without a hint of an apology, which is the first thing anyone with even a shred of decency would offer after making such outlandish, unsupported charges.

Like I said, only joke here is you. You make snide, snotty, nasty remarks and then try the old "just kidding" ploy without ever once admitting your charges were totally baseless in the first place. Pathetic. I've seen preschoolers with more maturity.

The only thing worse that your sad, sorry, failed ideology is your idiotic belief in a government that has failed miserably in every social program it has ever administered, and yet for some idiotic reason you still put total, ignorant, blind stupid faith in them to do it right this time.

Again.. pathetic. Now, if you you wish to apologize or address anything of substance I'm game. Otherwise this entire cycle of obfuscation and evasion has grown old and tiresome, and frankly no longer worth the time it takes to type out a proper response.

posted by: truthserum42 (reply)
post date: 04.08.10 (8:59 am)

Reply to: sos For your information nothing I have told you is based on assumptions but on verifiable facts and figures from official sources. I can't help educate you if you insist on being in a perpetual state of denial of the facts. You are right I have no idea of what your sexual orientation or race is but I am surprised that you took such umbrage in just mentioning the word. Don't you possess enough self esteem to know what you are and who your are without having some one else having to prove it. No Joke!.

Because you can't differentiate between what is substantive and what is rhetoric is an exhibit of your rigid idiotic ideological view points.

Please accept my apology if I personally offended you.

I will not try to assess your maturity level but if you insist on believing that providing access to affordable health care insurance to 50 million uninsured citizens is a bad policy then your thinking and maturity level is beneath that of a preschooler.

My belief in government is based on facts and what it has done successfully like advancing from 13 original colonies to 50 profitable and progressive states, establishing a federal government that provides and protect it's citizens with a constitution that guarantees a democratic form of government. It has provided a military that protects us from foreign invasions, it has established a railroad system and an air transport system to provide commerce and transportation to it's citizens an education system that provide equal access to education to all it's citizens a water and sewage system that provides clean portable water for drinking and a sewage system that protects us from many diseases, an electrical grid system that has extinguished the use of kerosene lamps in the entire U.S. a social security system that provides an economic safety net to our senior citizens, a medicare system that provide access to health care during their declining years and a medicaid system that provide health care to the poor. If you see all these successful accomplishment by the federal government as failure then maybe you are suffering from a disease called rectal optitis wherein your optic nerve gets tangled up with your rectal nerve causing you developed a shitty outlook on life and a jaundice view of what success really is.

posted by: sos (reply)
post date: 04.11.10 (11:58 pm)

What offends me is that you are so willing to engage in such nonsense to support your political viewpoint. To try and paint me or anyone else as a racist, or a homophobe, or anything else is unacceptable if you have no supporting evidence.

I won't tolerate that sort of behavior against any other poster, myself included. If it continues you will no longer be welcome here, plain and simple.

You can disagree with me ideologically until the cows come home and I won't mind a bit, but accusations like that against other posters without a shred of evidence won't be tolerated.

As to the rest, no, my outlook on life isn't "shitty" as you so childishly put it. All of the things you credit government for? Government had little if nothing to do with at all, other than to take credit for the hard work of others. Worse yet those things that the government does involve itself with aren't nearly the success story you rosily claim in your posting.

Our education system is a joke, to start with. Government has turned it into a huge, inefficient bloated organization that concerns itself more with keeping the status quo than providing a quality education.

Go back sometime and read a few letters from the late 1800 to early 1900's, before government and more specifically the federal government had a large roll in the educational process. What you'll discover is that people even with only 7, 8 or 9 years of school can write beautiful, elegant letters that put most college graduates to shame today.

Back then the emphasis was on educating students in the basics, dare I say it, reading, writing, and arithmetic. Today however the emphasis seems to be far more on political indoctrination and turning the kids into good little drones who can recite on que the horrors of global warming and whatever other cause the leftists who currently run our schools want them to be concerned about.

The railroad system you tout, at least on the passenger rail side, is a disaster. Amtrak loses money hand over fist, like most government operations. The "air transport" system wasn't built by the government either, it was for the most part commandeered after being built by private industry, slowly and over time the government exerting more and more control until they finally more or less accomplished a near total take over.

Don't get me wrong, I think there is a certain role that good government can fulfill, but the socialist utopia you seem to advocate simply doesn't exist. Once government starts poking it's nose into areas that it doesn't belong it begins to do more harm than good.

It's happened in nation after nation around the world. We are currently going down the same road Europe has gone down, and we can already see the disastrous consequences.. and yet for whatever reason you want to ignore this objective evidence in favor of .. what exactly? Facts and figures from "official" sources? Rotfl.. give me a break.

As to the rest, well, stop drinking the kool-aid and start thinking for yourself. You'll find it does a world of good. Also if you intend to post here be mindful of the accusations you hurl.. first time you call someone else a racist or a homophobe without a good amount of supporting evidence to back up such spurious charges you will be gone. Permanently.

I will not tolerate that kind of childish behavior from you or anyone else. If you wish to disagree, that's fine. But making accusations like that without evidence gets you banned. I hope that's perfectly clear.

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